Friday, January 12, 2007

Lincoln Park Terrace Condos in DC

Lincoln Park Terrace Condos
From the 300's

Under Construction

32 comments:

  1. They seem alright. I couldn't find any prices though. That neighborhood is still fairly sketchy.

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  2. YAWWWNNN.

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  3. It is interesting how "areas" are perceived. The revised H Street area (11, 12, and 13th and H Street NE) is now proclaimed as a new hot spot and is not too far from this location. Neither is Trinidad..with its seriously overpriced housing stock that many folks were clamoring for..before those ten or so people were murdered in the past few months.

    I will say that for 300K I'd like to be a bit closer to a metro but hey. They'll probably sell.

    David,

    I'd be interested in taking a poll or maybe just having an open forum on where BHers would actually consider buying? Are most simply holding out for traditionally "safe" areas in NW, or perhaps Montgomery Count, Alexandria...and NOVA (inside the Beltway). Or are there many BHers here who are considering moving to more transitional DC proper neighborhoods..like a Lincoln Park, Ivy City, Brentwood..or somewhere East of the River? Would you purchase a nice SFH for well below the Median price if it weren't in a place like Silver Spring?

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  4. I love how they "adjusted" the scale on their map. The distance between Union Station and 9th St NW is twice the distance between Union and 11th St NE. Makes the place look next door to Union, which it ain't.

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  5. I like the look of this building. But what is the neighborhood like (Mojo notes "sketchy.") Also, what are the floor plans/prices?

    I'm very happy to see more and more housing completing. We did have a slight shortage a few years ago. :)

    Not that I'd recommend buying for a bit. ;)

    Neil

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  6. We have the same thing going on in Los Angeles and Orange County. These new condo conversions from previous apartments are dropping prices like flies and pushing prices down. But then again we all new Compton was worth $450,000 right?

    Dr. Housing Bubble - How I Learned to Love SoCal and Forget the Bubble

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  7. I would move to a transitioning area if,
    1) it is well located. (remember Logan of 10 years ago). Lincoln is a good location, close to where would transition if its going to happen.
    2) Well priced (if my safety is in question, which means I stay holed up in my place or away from it, that's a big cost. Lincoln is not well priced for that boring box.
    3) the place needs to be more than a box (and that's what's being offered here). Another ugly box, and no rooftop space for the "penthouses".

    Moving to a transitioning area is a great move at if you sense that real estate is in a cyclical upturn: with the right attributes, your neighborhood could develop nicely. In a downturn, you may have to wait 20 years for changes to happen, which is much too long. Timing, in real estate, as in other things, is very important.

    With all the big condos being build east of 10th around Mass NW, I'll wait. There are so many being built and priced ridiculously that something will have to give (several claim they won't reduce prices to protect those who already have contracts at high prices.)

    OK on the neighborhood, wrong price, boring development. I'll pass.

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  8. Oh, gawd. The so-called "H Street Corridor" is not a place any sane person should buy a house in. It is not served by DC's rail system, it is still very "sketchy," i.e., crawling with winos, drug dealers etc., and prices are WAY out of whack with the neighborhood.

    Personally, I am fine with "sketchy," but housing costs should reflect the environment. In this case, they do not.

    People bought in the "corridor" because prices were rising. They are now falling. The "corridor's" prices and sales volume have been particularly hard hit. That neighborhood will be among the first to go down hard, and among the last to recover. That is the way it works, my friends.

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  9. dc_too...I hadn't paid much attention to the H street prices, but I've seen the condo units and prices for the rownhomes in that area. I haven't paid enough attention to the areas to say they have gone down dramatically. There are a lot of transitional areas where the housing prices are often on par with other more established areas.

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  10. 1) People are moving into more transitional areas b/c the commute to MoCo, NoVa, etc. just doesn't allow for enough time to live. People want 2 hours fo their day back.
    2) As far as Lincoln, I think once Snyder builds the new Skins stadium and obtains surrounding developmental rights, the place will lose a good bit of it's so called sketchiness. But in any urban environment, there is going to be crime. While places like Logan seem to have evolved from transitional, check out a crime blotter. If you want urban -- you'll have to deal with the crime.
    Not that Herdon, Rockville, etc is without crime. I guess it just seems more shocking.

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  11. Lincoln Park does have one thing going for it - the park is beautiful. One of the nicest spots in DC. That alone makes the area a good bet to straighten out.

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  12. Anon 2:44pm. I agree..I used the term sketchy in reference to dc_too's comment. And let's not forget that as you have stated MoCo and other areas are not without their crime issues as well. I don't know if I'd necessarily count on Snyder moving back to RFK, from what I've read theres a 30 year requirement involved...looks like lots of money would need to change hands, but that's another blog.

    I guess my position/question is would you pay the same for Rockville, Reston, or Herndon as you would for Lincoln Park? I am still seeing homes that have similar prices as other areas with less crime and more ammenities.

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  13. originaldcer said:
    "I guess my position/question is would you pay the same for Rockville, Reston, or Herndon as you would for Lincoln Park? I am still seeing homes that have similar prices as other areas with less crime and more ammenities."

    I think it really boils down to where people see a placing going "down the road". Yes, you might nowadays be paying the same for a place in Lincoln Park as you do in Rockville, Reston,and Wheaton, but will that be the case 10 or 20 years from now? With traffic ever-increasing, I can see a close-in place like Lincoln Park gaining in value because of its more central location. Conversely, some of the older suburbs are beginning to see increases in crime while places like Lincoln Park are seeing declines. (This could of course be directly related to the fact that increasing prices/rents in places like Lincoln Park are pushing people more apt to cause problems out to relatively cheaper places like the industrial sections of Rockville.) From a macro view, I believe that as the Washington metro area gains population, it grows in area ... The "safe" inner core that was once only G'town and upper NW and Arlington/Bethesda, etc, must get larger. The ring of lower-income areas housing the "service workers" that surrounds that core must get pushed out to places that were formally suburban ... Which in turn pushes the suburban areas out to areas that were once rural (the new ex-burbs) ... Cities are like biological entities ... like cells ... They grow in the same ways ... provided there is no "shock" to the system as there was in this area in the 60s with the riots and all. And because the shock of the 60s put this area behind where it should have been, I can see the "catch up" happening fairly quickly.

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  14. Lance said:
    "They grow in the same ways ... provided there is no "shock" to the system as there was in this area in the 60s with the riots and all. And because the shock of the 60s put this area behind where it should have been, I can see the "catch up" happening fairly quickly."

    The area will get better, but this is not a short term thing. Besides prices will drop before they go up, so why buy there now. If fairly quickly means 20 years, then yes. There is so so much condo construction being built. Madrigal, Sonata, CityVista, TenTen Mass, Dumont, The Metrople, Yale Lofts, etc. What it will really take is an excellent real estate cycle and/or reasonable prices now. But based on the condos being built now, wait and buy when the prices become reasonable.

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  15. Lance...10-20 years is a long time. How many people are staying in a condo for this amount of time? Frankly, I threw the word "safe" out there because it has been a word used by lots of people commenting on this blog. I'm probably a lot less responsive to crime statistics as it happens everywhere. It's been said by yourself and Va_investor that BHers simply aren't willing to make certain sacrifices and I wanted to know how if the complaints are really based on price or if people just have certain ideas in their minds about where they will and won't live.

    As to your point about pushing people in areas similar to Lincoln Park out.. This may be true in the case of some areas where public housing etc may exist. In other places, the "more apt to commit crime" people are owners..and I don't see them going anywhere. I live in a section of NE that is pretty diverse, it is a more residential section of DC. The original residents were not renters or living in the projects and are still there. Outside of the occassional death these folks have been in their houses well over 40-50 years. When an owner dies their children move in...little turnover occurs and no one is pushed out.

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  16. "As to your point about pushing people in areas similar to Lincoln Park out.. This may be true in the case of some areas where public housing etc may exist. In other places, the "more apt to commit crime" people are owners..and I don't see them going anywhere. I live in a section of NE that is pretty diverse, it is a more residential section of DC. The original residents were not renters or living in the projects and are still there. Outside of the occassional death these folks have been in their houses well over 40-50 years. When an owner dies their children move in...little turnover occurs and no one is pushed out."


    This is exactly why the oft quoted "median income" to "average selling price" ratio is so meaninless in DC. What you described constitutes a very large segment of Washington that has nothing to do with the economy that most of us live in.

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  17. Certain sections of NE haven't done what the Licoln Park area has done, for better or worse, the word is "gentrification"...and it means more sophisticated people living where less sophisticated people used to live, and this has a correlation with the amount of crime, but not a causation -- crime may be socio-economic, but not everyone leaves an area -- so I don't think you can classify everyone into "people stay --crime stays" classes. I have no proof, but I bet people willing to committ crime (ie, for money) are more willing to sell their house for a marginal profit, leading to gentrification. And from someone who lives in the RE market, a whole lot of those people are taking new found $$ and moving to other places outside this region. Think warmer climates and lower property values.

    Lincoln Park may have crime, and you may have to buy a "box" to live in, but it's a different type of box. One w/out airbags, seatbelts, and a horn. So while Rockville, Wheaton, Herdon may have less crime...there are a lot of parents getting home from work earlier in Lincoln Park, U Street, Kalorama, Chinatown, etc...and those kids have supervision..which leads to less crime. And is part of the whole reason our GOv't encourqages home ownership -- people care about neighborhoods, kids, and invest in a way of life.

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  18. Anonymous 12:05 said:
    "Certain sections of NE haven't done what the Licoln Park area has done, for better or worse, the word is "gentrification"...and it means more sophisticated people living where less sophisticated people used to live..."

    "Gentrification" is a word with nasty connotations. "Revitalization" is better and it what is used generally unless there is talk of (sophisticated?) whites pushing out (less sophiticated?) non-whites, which is why the word has gained the nasty racial connotation. Sophisticated? Richer? or Obnoxious-er?

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  19. Crime numbers for gentrifying areas like Columbia Heights and Logan Circles are stable. In other words, more yuppies moving into the area isn't make the neighborhood that much safer. If anything, criminals will be motivated to pay visits to Columbia Heights in search of a yuppie's wallet or a yuppie's car. Wealth attracts crime, especially in a community that borders lower economic class districts.

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  20. Gentrification may be a nasty word with nasty connotations and most people mean exactly that when they use it. They mean that the city is riding itself of poor, publicly supported persons of color and replacing them with self sustaining whites..who hopefully won't have children and therefore won't require the city government to clean up its education system. Statement meant in no offense to anyone reading.

    ihateyuppies..I completely agree with you. Now most people on this blog would probably consider PG County a crime ridden cesspool that they would NEVER live in and you are entitled to your opinion. But I've seen higher crime areas such as Suitland participate in revilization projects (400K townhomes) and only see existing crime remain and in some cases increase. i.e. the post article that discussed crime in Colubmia Heights etc.

    Revitilization often depends on who currently lives in the neighborhood and the percentage of owner occupied units. Owners don't necessarily get pushed out. If you rent or are living in publicly funded housing chances are you'll be forced out. I don't see how someone who hasn't had a mortgage in 30 years would be forced to sell. Reverse mortgages can take care of property tax demands..not to mention new bills the DC council is advancing to REDUCE property taxes from 10% annually to 5%. And by the way, there are plenty of people, of the old guard variety, who REFUSE to sell just because they feel they should be allowed to participate in this "rennaissance". I can't blame them.

    I'm sure people who moved to certain areas labeled as transitional have accepted certain forms of crime as typical for urban living. I'd really love to see how the plans to make areas like Langdon Park, Ivy City and Brentwood play out.

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  21. Anon 7:23 said:
    ""Gentrification" is a word with nasty connotations. "Revitalization" is better and it what is used generally unless there is talk of (sophisticated?) whites pushing out (less sophiticated?) non-whites, which is why the word has gained the nasty racial connotation. Sophisticated? Richer? or Obnoxious-er?"

    Nah ... gentrification is a color-blind word. Being gentry does not require being white. Anyone can be a "gentleman" (and "lady") and bring one's good upbringing with them ... which is all "gentrification" means.

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  22. Lance said:
    connotation...
    "Nah ... gentrification is a color-blind word. Being gentry does not require being white. Anyone can be a "gentleman" (and "lady") and bring one's good upbringing with them ... which is all "gentrification" means."

    Lance, so you also don't understand the word "connotation". Go look it up and respond with facts and data. Oh, sorry, you don't do that.

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  23. Anon 6:35,

    I know the meaning of the word connotation, and I know that anyone who reads a connotation into the term gentrification is very likely to be racist because it is they making a color or ethnicity association with the word gentrification that just isn't there for the rest of us. For most of us it simply means that a neighborhood has changed such that it is self-determinant ... No absentee landlords, no empty store-fronts, no criminals keeping the honest people off the streets. It is a neighborhood that has pride of ownership and is in control of its own destiny ... providing the people living there "Pride of Ownership". 'Course I guess that last part is an unknown to most bubbleheads reading this ...

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  24. The area this is in is fine. The closer to H street, the worse it gets, especially that far down on H. I rent in this area, near 3rd and I NE. H st is transitional still, but Capitol Hill is solid. Of course, not worth anywhere near what they're asking for in terms of price

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  25. Lance said
    "I know that anyone who reads a connotation into the term gentrification is very likely to be racist because it is they making a color or ethnicity association with the word gentrification that just isn't there for the rest of us."

    L O L! Examination of common usage will give you your answer.

    Besides, your previous answer was flaw all round: It attempted to address the meaning of the word and not the connotation.

    Lance said: "For most of us it simply means that a neighborhood has changed such that it is self-determinant ... No absentee landlords, no empty store-fronts, no criminals keeping the honest people off the streets. It is a neighborhood that has pride of ownership and is in control of its own destiny ... providing the people living there "Pride of Ownership"."

    Q: Are the absentee landlords gentry depending on where they live?

    And "gentry" has its own connotations, also not particularly sweet: 1) People of gentle birth, good breeding or high social position. 2) The English upper middle classes...

    Since when does not having absentee landlords, empty storefronts and criminals make gentry? The Amish country gentry? The assisted living community gentry?

    LOL!

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  26. There is a big difference between 3rd and I NE and 13th and D street NE...several blocks can make a difference. Capitol Hill has also been extended to the damn RFK stadium for some folks..

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  27. D and 13th NE isn't a bad area. The homes surrounding Lincoln Park, particularly just to the north of it are already pretty well gentrified or revitalized or what have you. it's probably a 15 minute walk to Union Station or Eastern Market metros. I live in the area and never have felt unsafe.
    OTOH, north of H and H st itself is a whole different story. What's fascinating about DC is how revitalization is almost a block to block thing.

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  28. Regarding the comments about the condos being seemingly "overpriced" compared to more "established" neighborhoods.

    When you buy new construction -- you get just that NEW construction. When you compare prices to square footage in more established neighborhoods, one can forget that those neighborhoods took time to become "established." So you might buy 100 year old house w/ 100 year old plumbing, electric, central air(?), etc. You might be buying more "established" work. The guts of new construction and the technology incoporated into today's building adds to the value of a place b/c there is less likihood that the internal guts of the place will need replacement/repair. Not all square footage is the same.

    Just something to consider.

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  29. I agree with anon above at 9:29am. I've been living a block from the lincoln park towers for a few years (a few in SE too) and i feel completely safe here. I actually think they're a noisy monstrosity and will obliterate what is a perfectly lovely parking and residential situation. I think they're overpriced and completely misplaced in terms of style/aesthetics. I like a neighborhood that is a little rough around the edges and doesn't look like a shiny new starbucks. Although, if that's your thing, I think eventually they'll be a good investment b/c the H street corridor is blowing up, and there's some really fantastic new bars and clubs open. In any case, good luck in the home hunt!

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  30. Not all new construction is really better. Especially when there has been shortages of copper and other things that go into that new construction. I think that 10 Y.O. PROVEN construction would be just as good as new.

    As for "Gentrification": LANCE: It would really help your argument if you just said "Excuse Me. I didn't mean it that way." and moved on. Instead you lost the debate and look like a racist to boot, but maybe that is what you were aiming for?

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  31. I agree -- 10 year old construction might be just fine. So might 100 year old construction. New construction might be faulty. But odds are that new construction will be better. And even after construction is complete, the builder cannot control the next owner/tenant. People ignore leaky pipes, don't change air filters (me included for that one), and generally allow for passive deterioration.

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  32. Do not buy in this building. I was strongly considering purchasing a unit. Thankfully, I rented here for one year in order to make a decision. Moving out at the expiration of my lease was a very happy moment!!!

    Here are several reasons not to make a purchase in this property:

    1. The homeowners' association (HOA) is struggling. They will nickel and dime owners when possible. As a renter, they continually changed policies to ensure that the renters were treated like second-class citizens.

    2. The HOA president is a complete bitch.

    3. At the time I lived here, approximately 75% of the building was rented. Only 25% of the properties were sold. Not a sound investment!

    4. Instead of a professional message board, the building continued to post "nasty gram" messages in the elevators. These addressed everything from “charging for use of the public grill on the deck” to “questioning the cleanliness of the individual who did not pick-up their dog poop”.

    5. The units are overpriced for the market and for what the building entails.

    6. The condo fees are approximately $300 - $500. This is pretty expensive since there is no gym, etc.

    7. It is not close to the Metro. Based on advertisement, one might assume that this unit is located close to the metro or Union Station. Don't be fooled. It is approximately 1+ miles to Union Station. The walk to Eastern Market is more like 10 blocks and takes about 15-20 minutes. The D6 bus route stops one block away from the building. However, the schedule is sporadic at best.

    8. Every year, the building holds an event on the roof for the 4th of July Fireworks. The HOA president decided to charge her friends one rate while charging others another.

    9. While living in the building, approximately 5 cars were vandalized in the secured parking area in September 2008.
    _____

    Finally....I was moving 7 small boxes on the last weekend in my unit to my vehicle in the garage. Six hours later, I receive an email stating that my entire security deposit was withheld based on the damages found to the door leading from the garage to the elevator. It was Sunday, and on an average, approximately 100 people might use this doorway. However, I was an easy target. THE BUILDING DOES NOT HAVE SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS IN THE BASEMENT, SO THEY COULD NOT PROVE THIS DAMAGE WAS MY FAULT. Despite this fact, the landlord charged me with damage to the doorframe along with re-painting the entire vestibule lobby. This lobby had dozens of scratches from transit of bikes, groceries, etc. In the meantime, I knew several other tenants who also had threats to their security deposit based on several claims of the landlord/developer.

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